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Board index » Games » Age of Conquest (AOC) » AOC: Feature Requests


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 Post subject: protector suggestion...
PostPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 10:03 
Serf
Serf

Joined: 28 Sep 2018, 23:10
Posts: 2
hi.
i have a weird ida but i think its great.
i think the protector need to be more active for the protectorate thet his protect of besides money. if his not good for the protrctorate he can cancel the agreement without too much damage.

1- the protector could make a fastival for the protrctorate so his happaince will go up same as distribute move option. this way the "citizen" will like the protector agreement.

2- (the bast part) the protctor could send troops on the protectorate province to guard on his province. but no one can move them. they only there to protect the province. the protrctorate need to accpt them and the military upkeep comes from them protector side.

:pal: :pal: :pal: :pal:
:headbash:


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 Post subject: Re: protector suggestion...
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2019, 18:28 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 23 Mar 2013, 18:33
Posts: 40
I am not sure of final outcome yet but for some time I wonder if protectorate can be used in more way than just for extra income (I am currently running this experiment). I have acquired 3 protectorates and convince them to avoid war or deplete land in exchanged for true protection. I have also demanded that as condition for their safety that they will support or join me in battle when required. Since they are just tenants of my land that they occupied, and I have gone to war with anyone that has attacked them, I have also requested they join me in wars and or support me. There lies the possible conflic. Can this be consider a group attack? Can this be used by friends and clan mates to dominate a game? These were complete strangers to me, but so far it has proven to have advantages. For ages, landlords have recruited peasents from their land to join in battles and support with higher taxes the war effort. Our combined land and population is almost double compared to next biggest player. I have also been force to battle friends and allys to protect my vassals, or pay others for their protection.

I do have concerns that if this strategy proves to be effective it may be abused by friends or clan mates. I still don't believe this experiment should be consider as group attack either.

Maybe I am wrong and will welcome clarification of protectorates.


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 Post subject: Re: protector suggestion...
PostPosted: 03 Apr 2019, 08:14 
Knight
Knight
User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2012, 17:45
Posts: 1234
really i don't see a difference between a 'protectorate bloc' and a clan/ally bloc. either can be used to advantage, and players put themselves at more of a disadvantage offering guarantees of protection.

the only honest peasant is a dead peasant ;)

_________________
The One True Howard

2008 - 2018

rest in anarchy


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 Post subject: Re: protector suggestion...
PostPosted: 06 Apr 2019, 16:13 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 23 Mar 2013, 18:33
Posts: 40
Very true King Howard. Taking the land is better but there is a price to pay, in extended wars, gold is wasted and land population depleted. Then you get a negative bonus when someone kills your vassal.

Under my experiment, land has not been depleted but expanded to full capacity, much gold has been saved. I have also expanded my # provinces in other wars. The only other condition I requested of vassals, they can't initiate wars on their own per history. Unfair to them but they have not lost a single province in over 50 turns due to protection by war or negotiated.


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 Post subject: Re: protector suggestion...
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2019, 09:36 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 23 Mar 2013, 18:33
Posts: 40
My point and suggestion is that vassal should be handle differently in AOC.

1. If player requests or receives protection request, if accepted he should loose 50% of land to protector but if he had only 2 provinces or less vassal keeps the land.
2. Protector controls taxes and levies of protectorate. Higher taxes, reduces revolt penalties to vassal (making revolt easier).
3. Vassal duties to grow land, join protector in wars or at least help finance protector wars.
4. Declaration of war on vassal also declaration of war on protectorate (land belongs to Lord, not vassal, vassal just tends to land).
5. Declaration of war on protector does not equal to war with vassal (rescue of vassal from friends or allys).
6. If player becomes vassal by being captured, he receives 2 options, become vassal losing 80% of land but never under 2 provinces if he had 2 at least or exhile to water losing all the land to winner. If player selects exhile, he will not be at war with winner and no penalty to winner if loser gets killed.

Only a suggestion, this would better reflect history. Maybe more unfair to vassals, but such is life. Penalties for losing a vassal at least in water without holding land make no sense to me. If not holding land, not a vassal.


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 Post subject: Re: protector suggestion...
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2019, 13:37 
Knight
Knight
User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2012, 17:45
Posts: 1234
i agree with 2, 3, 4, 5

don't agree with 1, vassals (voluntary) should keep their provs

still considering 6... letting it mull on me like a fine wine :winkiss:

generally having vassals didn't help me personally, which is why i preferred to kill rather than enslave. but howard was a unique player, really into the whole fight to the death thing :gott: :sm:

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The One True Howard

2008 - 2018

rest in anarchy


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 Post subject: Re: protector suggestion...
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2019, 16:04 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 23 Mar 2013, 18:33
Posts: 40
Thank you KingHoward for entertaining my suggestions.

Number 1 is also very important for everything to work. There has to be a penalty for voluntary submission, maybe 50% excessive.

Consider this example that happens in every large map with many players. As game unfolds, several players dominate but not even close to try and finish the game by points. This bigger players are dominating by winning wars but very much by diplomacy and alliances.

Player 1 big fish, not an excuse to break alliance and attack another big fish.
Player 2 small fish, he is next on the list of casualties to bigger fish but friend of Player 1.

Without penalty to player 2 for voluntary submission to discourage him, Player 1 is in luck, Player 2 submits to 1, Any other big fish that attacks Player 2, automatically in war with Player 1 giving him excuse to dissolve diplomacy arrangements or alliances.

Common practice will be for Player 1 to acquire many vassal locking game up. The only way to prevent this loophole is to discourage players from voluntary submission losing heavily.

That will then allow other big fish to do as game intended, to be eliminated or as you so eloquently said before, "a good peasent is a dead peasent".


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 Post subject: Re: protector suggestion...
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2019, 13:05 
Knight
Knight
User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2012, 17:45
Posts: 1234
i can't disagree with your logic :partyyy:

i urge you to gather support for this idea, the protectorate feature could use some improvement and you've got some good suggestions in my opinion :gott:

_________________
The One True Howard

2008 - 2018

rest in anarchy


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 Post subject: Re: protector suggestion...
PostPosted: 07 May 2019, 18:30 
Peasant
Peasant

Joined: 23 Mar 2013, 18:33
Posts: 40
Update on experiment:
Game has ended. As I expected, convincing a few players to not deplete their land in wars with me and become vassals in exchange for absolute safety is all it takes to win and dominate a game. Vassals were obedient growing the land, joining me in battle or supporting my wars, and not initiating wars on their own.

As I mentioned in earlier posts, their safety required me to pay, give away land, cancel at times friends and allies to keep all my land safe (vassals lands belong to Lord). I only had 2 wars in which I ordered and included only 1 of my vassals to join. Both wars were very briefed and successful but initiated by me. I also had wars on my own.

I really expected for others to attack my vassals so I could join wars in defence of my land but it never happened. I had informed all players of my test and willingness to attack anyone, friend or ally, that attacked my vassals to take my land.

Our combined land, population, and active army was kept at least 2X higher than any other single player for almost 76 turns (70% of the game).

The unexpected consequence was that more and more players voluntarily requested my protection as game progressed in exchange for absolute protection when facing larger enemies instead of fighting wars on their own as game intended. All that was then required was to pay small gold and/or land compensation (form new vassal land) to vassal current enemies. If enemies did not agreed, they would face war with the empire.

This was a domino effect, aquiring more voluntary vassal resulting in victory owning only 58 provinces myself but ending the game with 382.

This proves exactly my point. Protectorates (vassals) rules or settings need some change, particularly voluntary vassals. The main intention of this game is to be challenged in battle, not to hide behind stronger players when in trouble. We are supposed to give it our best, we will win some wars but also loose some.

Voluntary protectorates should be modified to discourage the practice. I have suggested lost of 50% of land to protector, most will not contemplate submission for such high penalty. Maybe this is not the best way to discourage it, but it needs changes are required.

My other concern is that now that I have successfully deImonstrated this strategy in a world map scenario against 12 of 15 top ELO ranked players with inexperienced vassals (I am also inexperienced) others will exploit.


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