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 Post subject: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 10:33 
Serf
Serf

Joined: 08 Feb 2013, 08:50
Posts: 19
It has been mentioned many times that to play with "honour" means upholding your alliance, verbal or otherwise. I'm just curious as to the general opinions of others on any reasons for breaking an alliance. i.e. they break one with your ally first, team game, etc.

I personally feel my word is my word, and if I make an alliance it should be upheld, even at the cost of "rating points" or a win. This is why I try to be careful the alliances I make.

Opinions?


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 11:03 
Serf
Serf

Joined: 04 Apr 2012, 17:06
Posts: 10
Totally agree. The enemies I have in this game have come from broken alliances. I don't think there is anything worse than an ally stabbing you in the back, especially when it's because you are losing and they want to take advantage and grab provinces. I've had that happen a few times, and those people I never forget.

The only reason I can see to break an alliance is in the case of a stalemate, where nobody can win the game unless there is more fighting. This doesn't mean when only YOU have no more moves, but when the entire board is allied out. If you have made too many allies and have nothing to do...that's your own fault, so support them with gold...don't be a turncoat and break an alliance.


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 14:33 
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Joined: 06 Jul 2008, 18:23
Posts: 3831
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I agree with both of you. To play with Honour means a player needs to trust that player both officially and verbally with any agreement that is made and accepted.

You asked if there are any conditions where it's acceptable to break an alliance. I'm certain players will have different opinions on this. Therefore, this will be my opinion. If a verbal or official ally has been made then it may be broken for one of the following reasons.

1) As stated by KievRus, if all players are allied out of the game and the game is in a state of stalemate and can not end. The couple of games I was in where this happened was settled by the leader asking players to give him the 1-5 provinces he needed to end the game without changing the current standing and positions of the other players. Hence there was no breaking of an alliance as those players were in agreement to do so for the sake of the game.

2) If an ally goes MIA. Some players jump on them right away. I usually try to give them a few days or a few turns to return before canceling. That is if a player goes MIA without any prior agreement to return or notification of being away, I then assume his not playing the game as a breach of our alliance.

If a player has gone MIA and comes back. I have on more than one occasion kept track of all lands I captured and then returned them to that player.

3) One of the variations of the game type: Domination, which requires all opponents to be eliminated. Here I think you can accept an alliance but a winner isn't declared until there is one player standing. Therefore, accepting an alliance should be understand that it's only temporary. That is if the option "ally" isn't blanked out from the diplomatic selection menu.

4) I not sure how Noblemaster meant this to be played but I think if an ally attacks a vassal of yours. I believe it would be acceptable to break that alliance in order to defend your vassal. At least that's how I understood it when noblemaster added vassalage to the game. Of course you would have to determine if your vassal was already at war with said ally before or after your agreements were made. Vassalage seen to get played very little so there isn't very much I can reference on this.

5) If both parties agree to break an alliance for a good reason then this would also be acceptable.

These are the only honourable reasons for breaking an alliance that I can think of for games that are played in the Standard, Mobile, Casual, Tournament, League and Clan Realms.

Naturally, other reason may apply if the game is being played in the Clan Realm, it's a team game or a game which states various rules or lack of rules in the game's description. However, I'm assuming we are talking about standard played games and not Clan Realm games, Team games or games with special rules clearly written in their description.


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 16:15 
Serf
Serf

Joined: 08 Feb 2013, 08:50
Posts: 19
Excellent opinions, thank you both! I have two specific examples though if you wouldn't mind weighing in on.

Situation A: Team game. Was down to me and my team mate, against one other duo. I was allied with one of the opposing teams players, and my team mate was allied with the other one. After about 15 turns of it being us against them, the guy I was allied with broke his alliance with me. About 30 turns later I finally asked my team mate to do the same because I just couldn't fight two at a time.

Situation B: I'm allied with two players, who are allied with each other. Player A cancels on player B. Is it dishonourable for me to cancel on player A? Or is it between them, and just note that I should not ally with player A?


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 19:08 
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Situation A: This can be tricky since it's a team game. I have played team games but not many of them so my experiences are limited with team diplomacy. Basically, I've seen it where I and others maintained our alliances regardless of how the game unfolded and I've seen it done where once the field has been thinned, diplomatic relationships are reexamined. A couple of times I had players write asking for an ally but they also made it clear upfront that if their teammates go to war with my teammates then the alliance may be voided. Which I thought was good way to do it for team games. You ask for an ally and state if this condition arises I may have to break our alliance in order to maintain a balanced game. Then the other play knows in advance and if he disagrees he doesn't have to accept the offer.

In your particular situation I would say, most players understand that team game can be a bit tricky regarding the use of diplomacy so you're granted a little more liberty. So, both teams could have opened up a dialog and say it's a 1vs1 game or let do 2vs2. The fact one side started to play 2vs1, I don't think the other side can complain when your team broke alliance to balance it back out. If it was me, I would have sent a message first stating why I was breaking the alliance, giving the other side a chance to decide if they wanted to play 1vs1 or 2v2.

Situation B: There is not enough information here to make a firm statement. It sounds like everyone was allied out. So was the game in a stalemate? Why did A x-ally B? Without any more information, if it was me, I would not break an alliance with either one of them. However, it might motivate me to send gold to ally B.

I would not hold anything against A because there might be a history between A and B that I don't know about and I prefer to keep out of family feuds. I might make a mental note of it so I'm not caught completely off guard and/or I will ask around to find out more about it. I usually don't put a player on a black list and not ally them, unless they have a history of doing it many times or they have done it to me, where I would know all the details of it, because I was involved as the victim.


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013, 09:28 
Serf
Serf

Joined: 08 Feb 2013, 08:50
Posts: 19
jiberjaber sends an alliance request and I accept. The very next "playable" turn he cancels. In messages, both actions show turn 23. I have taken a screen recording of it, and plan to take screen shots.

Kiev mentioned the only reason he could see this happening is that it was an accident. Meaning he meant to cancel relations to begin with, yet instead sent an alliance request.

So basically, what about this situation. *As I've already stated, I uphold my alliances no matter what. I can honestly say, without a doubt, I would uphold my alliance in this situation as well, since I would feel I should be more careful as well as I would not want to do anything to hurt my reputation, accident or not.

Opinions?

*I believe in honesty. So I must be honest that I have broken one alliance before against a player who broke an alliance with an ally, and there was no support option. So the only way to help was if I could attack. Still, I regret this, and can say I would not do such a thing again. I will not break an alliance without approval from ally first. As I believe fodder said, I could see a rare situation where someone has not logged in for many days to a week +, but would of course give back lands if they suddenly showed up.


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013, 13:09 
Peasant
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Joined: 13 Feb 2013, 20:33
Posts: 23
I would like to add something to this.

One case I experienced in a game I am playing right now.

3 players left in the game. Me allied to one of them and fighting the other one. Same thing with my opponent. The opponent was in the same clan as my ally.

Now my ally starts sending gold to his clan mate.

What do you think of this? It's not a directly broken alliance, but it's his money I was fighting. Luckily I talked to him about it and now we are just fighting each other with our own resources.

What I want to say, I don't think it is honourable to favor one of your allies over the other and send him gold. To me, that is the same thing as breaking an alliance. You don't fight your ally, but your fighting his resources. I don't care if it's his soldiers or the ones of my enemy, it's his gold.


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013, 14:51 
Serf
Serf

Joined: 08 Feb 2013, 08:50
Posts: 19
I was accused of being an alliance breaker for this same reason as mentioned above once upon a time. It greatly offended me, so I asked about it, and was told by several long time, experienced, well respected players (and admin) that this is not considered breaking an alliance OR dishonorable. Frowned upon by some, maybe. But no, a broken alliance is simple as that...you break your alliance. Verbal or official. Official is worse to me, but both are wrong.

From my "understanding", giving support is part of the game. If this is a part you don't like, then there are several games that don't have the option.


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013, 15:01 
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Joined: 06 Jul 2008, 18:23
Posts: 3831
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mjt1877, in the case of a possible Oops. We're only Human and are prone to making mistakes. So that situation is possible, but if that was the case. I would expect to see a message on the same turn the cancellation happened stating why or what the confusion or error was. If the cancellation and acceptance all happened within the same turn or maybe only a turn later. I'm likely to think nothing of it unless that player has a history of making huh, that kind of mistake. Of course any knowledge of the person's character will influence my decision and naturally I will make a mental note of it.

In regards to what Shad wrote. It's usually considered dishonourable to cancel an agreement but not so to financially support one of your allies. I have at times chosen to not support an ally to avoid hurting anyone's feeling. I have also supported both allies who were at war with each other. Naturally, I have funded only one side in a conflict. It all depends on the situation, if I owe someone who has supported me in the past, if someone has refused to support me in the past, if I have a good history with the player or a bad history with a player, would like the player to support me in the future, etc., etc..

Now in Shad's case it was down to just those 3 players. Most of the time, you can ask your other allies for their support to counter balance the support your enemy is receiving. You can also ask the supporter to not support the player he's supporting as you did. It never hurts to ask. However, if they choose not to withdraw their support or if you can not find others to support you. It does not make any of them dishonourable. Nor does it give you a reason to cancel on an ally. In addition, one should not get upset over it because, players are free to choose who they wish to ally or support. This issue of honour in my opinion deals more with your word as a player and a person and not so much who you may ally in order to not go to war against them or support them.

In most games a player has multiple allies. He can not be expected to aid all of them nor should he expect them all to aid him. An ally is someone who you can trust that won't got to war with you. Allies are usually free to support or not support any player they want. The two, ally and support don't always go hand in hand. So while an honourable player won't cancel on another player. He is free to choose who he does or does not support.

Even though you might be fighting his gold. I would rather be fighting his gold than be stuck in a 2vs1 war.


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013, 16:40 
Serf
Serf

Joined: 25 Oct 2012, 16:45
Posts: 4
How about this case: (u can assume there are D, E, F, etc players)
A and B at war with bottleneck border and both ally with C. The favor seems in A, so B made agreement with C to cancel so C can take B bottleneck

prov to prevent A army. C agree and cover B prov. Seeing that A feel tricked and cancel on C also.
-constrain 1: A is almost win and ally others player except B
-constrain 2: A can find another neutral player to expand
-constrain 3: A vs B + C is balanced
-constrain 4: A vs B + C still favors A
what are the constraint combination to justify what A did or whatever the constrain A still considered dishonorable?


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013, 20:10 
Serf
Serf

Joined: 08 Feb 2013, 08:50
Posts: 19
Everything fodder said I agree with 99%
The 1% is only that I do take a mistaken alliance request personal as that one turn can make a huge difference in my plans and actions. My situation for example, had I not had the alliance request that I accepted, I would not have made a full out attack against another player. Since I did, and then the very next turn the said alliance was canceled, it has left me very vulnerable. And of note, there was no message or explanation. Just me accepting, and next turn being canceled on.

As to zerotaste...

My A.D.D. really had a hard time keeping up with what you said. I literally had to get a pen and paper out to keep track of the first part! :headbash: But I did finally get it. B makes deal so C can take the bottleneck and protect him (B) from A. My personal opinion is that it was excellent strategy. So long as no agreement was broken with me, then it's part of the game and as much as I may not like it, I accept it. An alliance is, as I believe fodder put it, just a basic agreement that I will not be attacked by said player. That's it. No guarantee he will aid me in battle or support me with gold. His kingdom is his to do as he pleases with so long as it's not to attack me.
Now to the rest of his post, I'm completely lost, lol. :irre:


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013, 20:15 
Serf
Serf

Joined: 08 Feb 2013, 08:50
Posts: 19
Sorry, but real quick, perhaps I do agree 100%. Looking at what you said you pointed out had you received a message same turn, then you would be more understanding. I definitely would have been much more understanding had he done this. As I mentioned though, he didn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013, 20:18 
Serf
Serf

Joined: 08 Feb 2013, 08:50
Posts: 19
Last thing, I promise :ops:

But looking again at zerotaste question, I did catch that A, who was allied with C, cancels on him because he "feels betrayed". A is wrong in my opinion, and an alliance breaker. Unless C verbally told him he would not aid B, he has broken no alliance or agreement.

But no matter how many times I look over the rest of his post, I'm still lost. :irre:


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2013, 22:03 
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mjt1877, I didn't take it as personally as you since once the alliance is broken there is about 4 turns before he can do anything, so I can afford 1-2 turns to send messages, etc. before It really effects any of my orders. Therefore, it may not alter my game that much depending on my status with other nations.

In regards to zerotaste's case. It took me a couple of reads to make sure I understood the case he was making. First off, it's not clear as to why C would protect him.

I know I was in a war with a larger nation who most likely would have defeated me on his own. But a smaller nation who I was allied with canceled on me so he could get some easy land. He also was a clan member of the larger nation. The larger nation also thought as I that it was a sleazy, **** thing that his clan mate was doing and he was willing to give me a break (CF) but nothing more. Another nation not involved recognized it as bad sportsmanship too and offered to cut me off so either nation could attack me. He was even bigger so there was little chance they would risk war with him. We canceled and he cut me off, from them but then I told him to leave a small opening so the larger nation I was at war with could continue his war since he really did nothing wrong and shouldn't be penalized for the actions of his sleazy clan mate. So in this case I can see why another nation would come to the aid to protect someone.

In zerotaste's case that wasn't clear. If A only needed a few more lands to win then C should just let him take it from B. This is a war game after all and everyone should be willing to fight their own battles. Otherwise, why are they playing here????? If I was C I would only protect him if:
1) A had canceled on him in a sleazy or dishourable way.
2) B was C's vassal and hence was responsible to protect him.
Otherwise, I most likely would not agree to protect him but I might instead tell him to be a man and fight his battles. Now I might send B gold if he requested it from me.

So while B and C may have agreed to the cancellation. It's not clear that they did so for a good reasons. It almost sounds like they did so because B was being a crybaby or did not want to risk loosing points, which I would not consider to be a good reason for C to agree to a cancellation. Therefore, I might think it was dishonourable for C to cancel B to protect him, because it doesn't sounds like it's being done with honourable intentions but being done to save someone's rating.

Now if I was A, I might cancel on C if C canceled B in order to cut A off from fighting B. However, like I said it all depends on the what was really going on in that game.

Just hearing B and C cancels so C can protect B from A sounds like team work which should not be used in a free for all game. Use team tactics in team and clan games only. Not in standard games. As such I might feel like something fishy is going on which might spur me to action against one or both of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Honour - Reasons to cancel an alliance?
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2013, 01:07 
Serf
Serf

Joined: 25 Oct 2012, 16:45
Posts: 4
Sorry maybe a "space" between line is what make it difficult to read. :headbash: So I will post it with little modification:

How about this case: (u can assume there are D, E, F, etc players)
A and B at war with bottleneck border and both ally with C. The favor seems in A, so B made agreement with C to cancel each other.
So C can take B bottleneck prov to prevent A army. C agree and cover B by taking his bottleneck prov. Seeing that, A feel "tricked" and cancel on C also.
-constrain 1: A is almost win and ally others player except B
-constrain 2: A can find another neutral player to expand
-constrain 3: A vs B + C is balanced
-constrain 4: A vs B + C still favors A
what are the constraint combination to justify what A did or whatever the constrain A still considered dishonorable?


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