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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012, 06:42 
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In fact in Football (the most wealthy and widely played sport) the teams from the same nationals are kept apart to stop the possibility of "making" sure one nation progresses)


Okay I don't know much about Football but I am under the impression, for example that France does not enter 40 teams. The organizer might limit them to say 2 or 1 team. As such if France does have 40 teams that could go, they all player each the year before to determine who's the best amoung them. Also once in the Final Football Championship game (not certain what it's called) they are assigned division and are required to play those team in the division. Therefore, it's not completely random. That is if I understand the little I know about Football.

Quote:
Fair is when the best players don't see arbitrary rule wich forbid them to have a chance to win. if the 8 best runner in the world are Americain a fair competition would see theses 8 american in final, (but all the rest of the worl would not watch it so no money for the organiser.)

First off the rules aren't arbitrary. Second if the American team has the 8 best runners and the Olympic organization says you can only send us your top 3 runner. The American have a trail out to see who of the 8 are running the best at that time. Then they send only 3 and the Americans don't cry about it.

As a general note to all. Random does not imply fair. Depending upon each organization, sports, games, etc. Random as a tool can help or hurt the fairness of an organization. In this case, I think it's clear it would hurt the Spirit of the League.

If we had known that no one was interested in a League as pointed out by Karlas, and simply wanted another tourney. We could have eliminated a lot of work to bring you something more than another tourney. If a tourney you want, that's what we can do.

Also keep in mind every league or organization in the entire world is not the same. They all have rules and restrictions designed to encourage fair and competitive play. If you simple don't agree with a rule. You are not required to join. Just ask KingHoward who dropped out because he did not agree. If a rule is broke I agree it should be fixed. In this case I see no broken rule it's a matter of opinion that some people like things one way and others another way. We currently have over 32 tourney, all random, all without rules for you to join. We can add the league into the tourney realm or for those who appreciate something different, something more fair than a tourney, something more challenging we can keep the league as is.


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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012, 07:46 
Serf
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Joined: 13 Feb 2012, 19:13
Posts: 16
HMMMMM... StoneCold... in da house...

Lets put it this way... I thought it was... based on ranking... regardless of who was on a team or not... a clan is just that, a grouping of players with like interests...

I think that its ludicrous to make a system, and then when your not happy with the results, ask the league, WELL SHOULD WE CHANGE IT... if it is purely done the way you set it out to be... BEST vs WORST... then this wouldnt be an issue... and why do people get more points based on the "TIME" they signed up for the league... thats just ****...

If your worried about clans, make a rule next season, that its a CLAN league... CLAN MEMBERS ONLY... and have one for NON-CLAN MEMBERS...

its kind of childish that it has to come to this... but when you look at the 1 v 1... and you take into consideration the ranking, at the time of registratiion.... some players learn this game very well in a two month period after registration... and what happened to best vs worst... i was an alternate and im playing someone in the lower half of the "RANKING"... no disrespect to my opponent, but the organizational structure is completely biased, or so it seems...

anyway, to finish up this "VOTE"... whats done is done... the rankings according to the LEAGUE are done... even though they are more confusing then the BCS BOWL RANKINGS... let it be... next season we can learn from this... and make the necesary adjustments... obviously we are getting the necesary feedback from the game members... and ihave run tournaments from... SOFTBALL, to CHESS, to DUNGEONS and DRAGONS to WARHAMMER 40k... so if there is any questions i can assist with i would be gladly available to help...

anyone have any direct comments... please feel free to email me... cause im rarely on this blog/site...

PEACE OUT...

and thats the bottom line.... cause... STONE COLD SAID SO...


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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012, 08:59 
Knight
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Quote:
First off the rules aren't arbitrary

Of course they're ! Rules are arbitrary.
Quote:
the Olympic organization says you can only send us your top 3 runner.

Yep 3 rather than 4. Why ? No special "fair" reason. this is arbitrary. but it's ok.

In football there's only 1 team by nation, there's a "hope" turney as well with 1 team by nation, and in the world championship not all countries are represented (that's a real difference with the olympic). there is a arbitrary number of nation from part of the world wich is allowed and local competition to decide who will in and who will not.
the difference between olympic and football is country or continent, but the system is more or less the same a max player allowed by country or continent, wich is a arbitrary rule.

If the 4th fast american run faster than all the other people in the world that is not fair that he can't do the olympic between 250 other people.
It's not fair but it's ok. Sport is not always fair.

The clan rule is a bad answer to a simple question what's wrong if 2 players or team of the same clan do the final ?
if they 're the 2 best player or teams that's the best final we can have.
Competion is about win and loose not bout equality of representativity.
The rule made by the olompyc or the FiFA has done to rise sport everywhere, we don't have this problem.
May the best team win.

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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012, 10:09 
Knight
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it's also the 1st time for v3 leagues... and it's quite a task to accomplish. i know riff put a lot of time and effort into it, but it's hard for 20 (22 with the commish's) peeps to agree on everything. some replies i agree with, some i don't... but i think we got the 9 votes, the clan rule shouldn't be an issue anymore? i didn't see anyone vote to keep it the same or did i miss something? :???:

as far as setting up registering as part of the seeding, i can agree with it's purpose - to encourage early confirmations of participation in the first running of the league. kinda helps to know what ur working with and as a tournament organizer i understand completely the logic behind it. i have to back riff on the early-bird formula he used. :happyx:

overall, i'd say riff is doing what he can to make this work... just remember, it is the first time! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012, 12:10 
Peasant
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As I have said in another post, StoneCold has taken my very priviledged spot in the ranking when he has been matched against Jacob, ... it has been a direct swap when I did not reply in time and another player was required ... StoneCold ought to have been ranked appropriately and all the competitors accordingly matched again before starting the competition ....

As far as RealRiff ... I think he is a top human being, for obvious reasons ... there are very few who would have spend so much time and effort to put all our complicated minds together in a competition ... :irre: :headbash: :crazy: :???:


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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012, 22:54 
Peasant
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Joined: 17 Mar 2012, 03:23
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I know its already decided but I just want to support my team decison and vote AGAINST.

And as last... Since anyone didnt even bother to respond on my earlier and first post anyway in this forum ever, where I stated that any of mentioned system has nothing to do with league and I would point out that someone who wins a league where everyone play with rach other is the only and the best way to determinate who the best team really is.

And THE LEAGUE by Wiki;

"The common thread between all sports leagues is a structure that allows teams or individuals to compete against each other in a nonrandom order on a set schedule, usually called a "season," with the results of the individual competitions being used to name an overall champion.
A league championship may be contested in a number of ways. Each team may play every other team a certain number of times in a round-robin tournament. Usually, teams play equal number of games or matches at their own stadium and at other teams', because home advantage is a major factor in many sports. When teams competing for a tournament championship do not play the same teams the same number of times, it is known as an unbalanced schedule."


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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012, 18:36 
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In regards to arbitrary, arbitrary implies a random choice. No random choice was made with the rules. The rules were chosen on purpose. No one grab some dice or a dart where the number 7 popped up which said no one can enter the league if their name began with the letter Q. And if such a rule did exists it's very unlikely it was randomly placed there. If it was place there, it most likely was because someone had a bad experience with a person who's name began with a Q and they wanted to keep him/her out. Although, I know what you mean, there are plenty of laws and rules in the world that may appear to be arbitrary but they are not. There's usually a reason behind it, one that's not random although perhaps silly or just down right messed up but not random. Therefore they are not arbitrary.

In regards to the 1vs1 league question, that was in another thread where Noblemaster has already apologized for not programming it way it was announced. That problem is a different subject from one being discussed in this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2012, 12:34 
Knight
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:partyyy:

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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2012, 23:08 
Knight
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fodder wrote:
In regards to arbitrary, arbitrary implies a random choice.

Not necessary.
I can't argue in english correctly about it. :/
A random decision is probably most of the time arbitrary.
But a arbitrary decision doesn't imply used of random, it implies use of the choice of one (one can be a little group as a military junta) opposed to a concerted decision (vote) or an application of a law "to the letter", or not a choise based on a calcul or a rational method.

look at theses definition none of them implies random :
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arbitrary

But anyway i don't argue against arbitrary decisions, i just say that if you have to take few (and you have too) that you should be radical in the first option then you see clearly the diffferent spirit of theses mesures, that will help you to use the less possible rules.
As i said :
if clan is a problem according to you, only 1 by clan is allow.
You think that's too hard ? Hey that's maybe cause clan is not a real issue which need a special improve. :^^:

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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012, 09:39 
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Well, I can't speak for realRiff so I don't know the exact reason why realRiff included the clan rule into the league. For my part, I can see the need for it. Although, there may not be a clan problem this year, it could cause problems for the league in the future. Without the rule the league has no integrity and is nothing more than another plain tourney.


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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012, 13:08 
Knight
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well... league's aren't really like a tourney. tourneys are easy and straightforward, there's only the rules they are created by and there's no adjustments to be made or matchups to be concerned with as AoC takes care of all of it. ALL of it :partyyy:

leagues are different, and there isn't one exact perfect definition for a league since leagues can be different. they can have group phases OR knockout phases OR both, riff created this league and that alone gives him discretion on how to start things off. some things may change by vote, but he put the ball in play so to speak... doesn't mean there can't be other leagues?! anyone else want to step up and setup a Fall league? i'm sure Noble Master will give anyone the opportunity he gave riff, if anyone thinks they can do it better then volunteer to create a second league? i'd like to see a "group mode" league myself... or maybe a couple conferences... :partyyy:

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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012, 20:48 
Freeman
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Joined: 17 Feb 2010, 05:35
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This isn't a league, it's a tournament. It can be seeded or random, just not called a league!

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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 02:54 
Knight
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seems like a league to me? at least in the AoC sense? it isn't a tournament by AoC's definition. of the 30+ tournaments in May of Conquest NONE needed a commish, a registration formula, a waiting list, manual creation of individual games, or outside opinions on how they will run. Tournaments run as is, u have no say what-so-ever in the process. The League is not a tourney, it required much more thought and effort than all the MoC tourneys combined, the way it's organized makes it a league and NOT a tourney, and therefore it is a League by AoC's definition. if u don't like it, DON'T PLAY! let someone on the waiting list take ur spot like i did for 1vs1. then someone else who actually wants to play in the LEAGUE will get to play in the LEAGUE. :p

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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2012, 13:44 
Freeman
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Hi to all,
this discussion is very nice. We have alot opinions and thought which goes in a right way. And I think that the league next year will be a better one then it have been this year. But dont forget that some things to realise need a deeper view on facts and understanding the system its based. So i give a small glimpse on fodder and mine work.

We just can learn from each other. And make things happen.

The League is for 2012 was made by rules which take the league in a direction to make it happen and to motivate people to bring their Ideas. The leagues in the years before were incomplete or run out of organisation.

I know the rules are hard. But this is the LEAGUE no Kindergarten :crazy: , or simple game where you can miss a round and hope that you can catch up. So dont lower your chances or the chances of your team to win this league by missing rounds. Concentrate on each game and give your best. Only this counts.

Now i want to come to the discussion of the clan regulation rule. It was important to me, because as fodder mentioned it is used in popular sport leagues or olympics to hold chances for participants equal. That the fairness and equality is spread out. :pal:

But the main problem in this league was in my eyes that not much people applied. We had only like 23 applicants for the 1vs1 mode. we cut of like 3 people who hadnt a chance to participate because their application came to late. means after 8. march. anyway the magic numbers for k.o. system are 2,4,8,16,32 and 64 and so on.
So if we take 21 players or 29 it would almost the same. just with the difference that we make more people angry who are on the long waiting list. The less people apply the higher the chances are for clans with a precense of several teams to take control over the game. But if all teams of a clan behave fair and fight their opponents without any arbitrary or strategies to give a special team a advantage it is fine.

Fodder and me set a rule system to protect players and the fairness of the league not to harm anyone. This have to set clearly for all time.

Why waiting list? what is this for? As I mentioned those numbers which a important factor for application for a k.o. mode. Taking a decision to run the league in a k.o. mode which is the fastest solution to a final decision.

here an example:

we have the 1vs1 mode which has 16 participants. each participant has to fight his opponent in a Ko mode. that means there are 4 rounds until the winner is clear. 4 rounds means with 24 hour turns and giving each player 40 rounds for each game. 40 days. Now if we take less then 40 rounds per each round. we could run danger that any unexpected action - for example the clan rule which was decided by the participants (well done) - can harm the schedule an its feasable (executeableness). As already mentioned our drafting system gave a small chance to early lower rated applicants to have an advantage to apply early what I told Stonecold before he applied.
But if all the toprated players also apply early, they destroy the chances of the low rated players. Yes. Means the low rated players fall at the end out of the league. As in all popular sport league systems. But they have the chance to come inside again by waiting list. :^^: Why? Because we can say which players will hold their application and which wont. The organisers work is based on to be in time and endurance. :klugscheisser:
Now let us follow the thought about the 40 days and 7 days break. to come to next round. totally it means for all final rounds and the starting round 47 *4 means 168 days almost a half year. if would get 32 players. it would be 215 days. I had to calculate all before running the league. Thats the reason I decided it this way. Nobody could say at start that we could get only 21 applications in time. Recruiting pahse was like 7-6 weeks. A short pahse. But to realise this all within this year I had to keep it quick the longer we would wait the higher the chances are that people would lose interest or something else. Just please ask fodder how complicated it was to get all people with licenses and make them all participateable. not easy. But he done it. Running the 2vs2 league in the mobile realm was a decision to make sure that all participants taking part. we wasnt sure about players like bperuti or spago but we wanted to see them in league! They are hereos in mobile realm but not present in those desktop invorement. This v3 league is the first league which had to face two worlds of aoc the mobile players and the desktop players. bringing them together is more complicated then it sounds.

47 days for a round means:
- to think about a map which is fair, gives players the feeling to have enought time to built up a eco a military strategy and not to feel rushed during the game by its opponent. We want that a win is clearly not based on a high factor of luck. the is always also a luck factor. yes. but building a map you can control or give the gameplay a direction. this is long long topic also. yes.
- probably we can use for next year KingHowardIIs duel map. which is very intersting too. Warlords he made even two of them.
-To run the 1vs1 mode on a map like miks duel map would make the game shorter and faster. what could open the option giving player the chance for 48 hour rounds.
- it s important that players have 40 rounds for this map King of Fortress, because if two good players face each other the 1vs1 mode can easily go over 20 or 30 rounds. I remember me and firemandaves irak vs (me) france games. lol. what battles.
-after the game each player needs time to come down. and to get ready for his next opponent.
-and what if something comes between?
-so we put a little more time between that the next phase can start ion time and safe.
- the more players the bigger the maps the more time is need to run a round. So the team games have a higher round period 2vs2 with 50 rounds and 4vs4 with 60 rounds.
-if you earlier finish? party your victory and keep practising the strategies with your partner and friends and come strong and motivated to the next round.

The league realm is a copy of the tourneys realm which also allows mobile device players to join. But noblemaster is working on it. As you all realised the league realm has its own AI that means it set up games up itself and send out messages by itlself and reports winners by itself. It also set the upcoming rounds by itself. Fodder who is organising the 1vs1 mode did a masterpiece of work to get 16 players inside not more or less. Because also the starting time was a fixed time which the realm starts itself. Creating a prefect league realm which takes alot work away from organiseres is a really hard work which needs its time and detailed programming knowledge so we can say at this point not to be disappointed :( if this 1vs1 mode isnt fair to you right now. We are doing our best and noblemaster is working on it. which needs its time.

Making the league to an successful event, you can do follow those guidelines.


TAKING PART IN A LEAGUE MEANS:

1. TO BE ON TIME
2. NOT TO MISS YOUR ROUNDS
3. BE FAIR AND SPORTY
4. FOLLOW GUIDELINES AND RULES OTHERWISE YOU BREAK THE SYSTEM
5. ACCEPT DISICIONS OF THE ORGANISERS (if they are all right)
6. THE VIEW OF A PARTICIPANT IS NEVER THAT BIG OVER THE HAPPENING OF FACTS AS OF PEOPLE WHO ORGANISES, they have an own interest which has a high priority in their minds, and they are influenced by their will to win. Which is good not bad. ( ;) )
7. TO GIVE YOUR OPPINONS AND IDEAS TO IMPROVE THE SYSTEM
(as with the clan rule)
8. TO GIVE YOUR BEST! :kg:

I want to say thank you to all throwing in your oppinions and minds to make this league stronger and going on!

A special thank to KingHowardII and his banners he made for the league. The league realm isnt ready for the 2vs2 mode and 4vs4 mode. but the finals will be hold there and we will use KingHowardsII banners! :partyyy:

It was not a weakness or I wasnt feeling unsure in any way to make the vote for the clan regulation. We need all over the rules we have set up to keep a fairness as organiseres for the league which was harmed by forcing the players in a setting the majority wouldnt agree. :x ;) Also the 1vs1 map voting was the right decission. The more oppinions comes to a decession the higher the chances are that the decission can be right. (claymore you are right with your statement about democraty. hehe.)

So it was the right decission to restart the 2vs2 mode and give all teams a equal chance. I remember reading the notes of Lastid and his thoughts about clan regulation and he was also against.

But to keep all things fair a clan regulation is necessary. Probaly we will make a clan limitation for next year?

What also means that we need more applicants who also take part until end of the league and who are on time. Showing up before round start to recieve passwords and to confirm, to give answers to organisers on any kind of questions. Otherwise a league nevertheless how good the organisation is will break down.

The LEAGUE are the players - the players are the LEAGUE. :pal:

regards

realRiff

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 Post subject: Re: 9 voices need to change team settings. Only particpants (20)
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2012, 10:32 
Knight
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Joined: 31 Jan 2008, 11:39
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:klugscheisser:
TL;NR

just that
Quote:
It was important to me, because as fodder mentioned it is used in popular sport leagues or olympics to hold chances for participants equal.


Nope!

Olympic doesn't have a country rule.

The counrty question is solved in the selection not in the game.

All my point is based on that.
If you think there's a problem with clan and league, you should
1) explain it, cause it's not obvious, i just don't see it. :???:
2) solved it in the selection.

Cause in a fair competition all players follow the same rule.
The clan rule is a special rule for clan player only, it can't be fair.
And as i explain it, it does the contrary of what it was thought.
The clan rule rise the chance of a clan to reach the next turn.
Why use it if you want to equal the chance of not clan player ?
So i don't get the "why" and the "how" doesn't do what he should do if there was a valid why => bad bad rule.

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